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    from larry king
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      CommentAuthorMcKs
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2008 edited
     
    only 16% of the US population has no religion? wow.

    It's a little different over here :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#Religion
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    Larry King mentioned something which seemed quite sensible to me;
    That he (Person King quoted) wouldn't be able to vote for an aetheist because they wouldn't believe in a higher authority.

    I'm not religious at all, but I respect people who are, I admire there strength when people try to disprove their beliefs. And I think it would be incredibly comforting to have that hope.
    But I do reject to people trying to shove religion down my throat.

    However I can see tht having someone who doesn't believe that they have to answer to someone more powerful than themselves for their actions, in a position of massive power (like American president) would be quite daunting for a trusting public.

    Hm, a promo and it made me think.
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      CommentAuthorflak
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2008 edited
     
    So, people who delude themselves into thinking things that are most likely false...you respect them for that very reason?

    I don't further respect people for continuing to believe falsehoods in the face of facts - in fact, I lose respect for them, because of their lack of critical thinking. There's a big difference between tenacity and delusion.

    The reason most atheists don't speak up about religion is the same reason most people don't speak up about politics - I can think of plenty of people I'd rather keep as friends than try to push my view of reality onto. What do you get when you push your beliefs onto other people? You find yourself surrounded with people who are exactly the same as you - that's boring. You don't grow as a person that way, and you close yourself out of other viewpoints that could be correct or at least worth exploring.

    :)

    Edit: As far as the President goes, there is a higher power that you need to answer to - the massive amount of people that voted you into office (and the ones who didn't, too, as you are still their President).
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      CommentAuthorchicken
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2008
     
    flak said...Edit: As far as the President goes, there is a higher power that you need to answer to - the massive amount of people that voted you into office (and the ones who didn't, too, as you are still their President).
    Now if only that was the case
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      CommentAuthorchicken
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2008
     
    chicken said...
    flak said...Edit: As far as the President goes, there is a higher power that you need to answer to - the massive amount of people that voted you into office (and the ones who didn't, too, as you are still their President).
    Now if only that was the case
    actually.... is it "if only that was the case" or "if only that were the case" ?

    tia
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      CommentAuthorwebsnap
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2008
     
    flak said...So, people who delude themselves into thinking things that are most likely false...you respect them for that very reason?.

    Sorry, that made me chuckle, just because it's a stale mate, neither can really be disproved because - by nature - science can't rule anything out. Talking snake aside.

    I think people should be respected for believing in something so many try to disprove - if only for the strength of there resolve, unfortunately they loose the respect by trying to convert or influence the masses. That doesn't just go for religion though. That can be applied to any thought process - such as Arsenal's chances of glory this term... (sorry mesk)
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    science can't rule anything out


    Actually, that is the exact purpose of science.
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      CommentAuthorwebsnap
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2008
     
    clunkyrobot said...
    science can't rule anything out

    Actually, that is the exact purpose of science.

    That's true, science's purpose is to remove doubt, but it can't rule out the existence of God any more than anyone can prove unequivocally that he/she/it exists. How can one disprove using physical fact something that is ethereal and faith based? That's all faith is, you believe it or you don't with no guarantee of incontrovertible proof till the end. Science can prove or disprove events or stories from a book that written by man as a tribute/testament to God, absolutely. But Science can't prove that God or the afterlife, regardless of which interpretation one chooses to believe, doesn't actually exist. If it could it would be like gravity, common knowledge the world over. While it may seem like common sense to some, it's not the same thing.
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      CommentAuthorflak
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2008
     
    What? Science's purpose is to get to the bottom of things - figure things out.

    If something doesn't exist unless you believe in it, then it doesn't exist. Period. I mean, if I don't believe that you exist, that does not make you disappear.

    Science cannot 100% disprove God, but it cannot be proven, either. I believe the burden of proof is on those who think there's a man in the sky, who cannot be seen, and has created/controls everything in existence.

    If you can apply the scientific method and prove there is a God, then I'll be happy to believe you. Until then...
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    flak said...I believe the burden of proof is on those who think there's a man in the sky, who cannot be seen, and has created/controls everything in existence.
    would you accept that the burden of proof is on those who insist you should believe the same as they? if i were to believe in the yetijelly monster i dont need to prove that to anyone unless i suggested you should do too
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      CommentAuthorflak
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2008
     
    If you mean the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that was a joke created to show how stupid this whole thing is. And yes, the burden of proof is on them, too.

    The reality is, some people need to know there is an answer for everything in the world. And if religion serves that purpose, that's fine with me. It's really when your beliefs enter my reality that I get angry - when we're at war even partially because the President believes God told him to. When all of the candidates are expected to be devout worshippers, if they want to be elected. When entire societies overseas are governed by religion - including the suppression of women, the jailing of nonbelievers, etc.

    Here, don't even watch past the first two minutes. The whole thing is excellent, but it can be difficult to watch ten minutes of something that fundamentally disagrees with everything you believe in.

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    don't get angry
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      CommentAuthorwebsnap
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2008 edited
     
    flak said...What? Science's purpose is to get to the bottom of things - figure things out.

    If something doesn't exist unless you believe in it, then it doesn't exist. Period. I mean, if I don't believe that you exist, that does not make you disappear.

    Science cannot 100% disprove God, but it cannot be proven, either. I believe the burden of proof is on those who think there's a man in the sky, who cannot be seen, and has created/controls everything in existence.

    If you can apply the scientific method and prove there is a God, then I'll be happy to believe you. Until then...

    For me, that's not really how it works. I know that's sounds like a cop out, or an excuse but it's true. I don't believe in converting the masses, or instilling my beliefs in others, or a lot of what goes with religion. I don't think my belief needs to be sold to anyone so I don't see a burden of proof. The only real proof I choose to require will be given to me hopefully a lot later on, and if there turns out to be nothing in the end then I have nothing to loose, since I had direction in my life which may not be the only way but it's my choice.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is those who believe will do so and those who don't won't and barring a major event in their lives to sway their view they will more than likely stay their course and personally I'm cool with that. However what really gets me steamed is when a loud few feel they need to shout their view for the world to hear and what's worse, feel the need to enforce it into other people's lives. That dampens mine and others spiritual experience and that's not cool.
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      CommentAuthorwebsnap
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2008
     
    BTW - love that clip. It's funny. I don't believe it but I don't have to, just his delivery is spot on...
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      CommentAuthorflak
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2008
     
    urbansurgeon said...don't get angry


    Not angry. :)

    websnap said...However what really gets me steamed is when a loud few feel they need to shout their view for the world to hear and what's worse, feel the need to enforce it into other people's lives.


    Indeed, that's over the line for me, too. I agree completely.

    A good friend of mine is studying to become a priest...if he and I can get along so well, I don't see why anyone else can't. ;)
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    I have a few christian friends...they just tune me out sometimes
    hell my girlfriend was born hindu(I guess she still considers herself to be, she doesnt seem to care much about the whole 'what happens after death thing')

    eh, i rant sometimes, and do make jabs at people who love to wear their faith on their sleeves(or around their neck)

    I have a devil tattoo on my arm(its a standard design, slightly altered to resemble me)
    i get shit for it, so give all hell back~
    I dont believe in the devil or hell, just annoys me when someone acts all high and mighty and tells me im going there.
    I dont go out of my way telling people fuck god, fuck buddah, fuck allah, fuck the devil, and fuck santa claus...
    but if someone annoys me~i have no problem logically attempting to tear apart the fabric of their belief system
    its not the athiest and the 'heathens' that are fucking up this country(have fucked up)-its the devout faithful who think jesus is coming back to fix us all
    If everybody keppt their faith to themsellves, out of politics, and away from my ear~I could care less, as long as they keep shouting, and judging, and enacting laws
    I'll keep up the blasphemy~fuck em!
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      CommentAuthorVe.
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2008
     
    orsonrockwell said...If everybody keppt their faith to themsellves, out of politics, and away from my ear~I could care less, as long as they keep shouting, and judging, and enacting laws
    I'll keep up the blasphemy~fuck em!


    A-men brother!:smile:
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    ORSONISCRAZYANDMUSTBESTOPPED
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      CommentAuthornicko
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2008
     
    A-men brother!

    Ha ha
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      CommentAuthorPants
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2008
     
    The problem with bringing "faith" into the argument is that it can be the end to any rational discussion. We need to disregard it for discovery's sake and truly ask why it is we believe what it is we believe. If you can not ask yourself that then you have no right in believing anything.

    The other problem with "faith" in general is that it provides a moral authority to those not fit to wield it.
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      CommentAuthorchicken
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2008
     
    Flying Spaghetti Monster
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      CommentAuthorjussi-k
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2008
     
    I do not like religion. I do not understand it. It is not important.
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      CommentAuthorchicken
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2008
     
    jussi-k said...I do not like religion. I do not understand it. It is not important.
    Hello fellow atheist :) That makes two of us then.
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    Im an orsonist!
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      CommentAuthorwebsnap
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2008
     
    Pants said...The problem with bringing "faith" into the argument is that it can be the end to any rational discussion. We need to disregard it for discovery's sake and truly ask why it is we believe what it is we believe. If you can not ask yourself that then you have no right in believing anything.

    The other problem with "faith" in general is that it provides a moral authority to those not fit to wield it.

    I take serious offense to that, I have the right to believe in whatever the hell I want. If I feel like believing in the above mentioned spaghetti monster (without making a point to find ways to enforce it on others) I'm damn well going to believe it. Preventing or ridiculing me for my personal belief would be behaving no better than how many atheists are treated by religious zealots. Apparently, close-mindedness to individual beliefs is a two way street. Faith is what I believe in. You are asking me and other who might speak to me to disregard what I believe in? Glad to know we have a new moral authority. Same effect different direction.

    I hope I misinterpreted your post, though I feel I haven't.
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    i think(may be wrong) what he was trying to say is that when you factor "faith" into any argument or discussion, the end result becomes moot
    as 'faith' requires no validity or scientific proof, and therefore can never be proven. i do feel a strange tangent was added
    " If you can not ask yourself that then you have no right in believing anything "
    as i never realized believing was a 'right'...figured it was just a given
    No one can "prevent" you from believing anything, ridicule yes, is that wrong~maybe
    riduling, and being ridiculed is a part of life...la de da
    do i do it~i guess, does that make me wrong~eh...

    like i said, i dont have issues until someone makes one, close mindedness to individual beliefs is not a two way street, its always a one way street, just some people walk on different streets
    I think i can understand why you became annoyed with his statement, but i think you read too much, and he wrote too much~
    regardless dont get too pissed web,
    but im a crazy person...and im just sayin is all

    all hail orson!
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      CommentAuthorflak
    • CommentTimeAug 28th 2008
     
    orsonrockwell said...and im just sayin is all


    :D
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      CommentAuthorchicken
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2008
     
    Shut Up
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      CommentAuthorwebsnap
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2008 edited
     
    I was upset enough to comment, but I wasn't too pissed. It was more about me not knocking the other views of those who didn't believe what I do and a "showing where I come from" sort of thing without actually pushing it, and it seemed I was being ridiculed/disrespected for it.

    And chris, I wasn't trying quiet down criticism of my religious beliefs (for one, I don't belong to any particular religion since they all seem broken to me, and two, I'd like to think I have thicker skin than that) I viewed it kind of personally, which was wrong and I apologize to Pants. I stand by my comment, but it was ill directed.

    I would have replied sooner but I had a bit of a medical emergency (I has a seizure late thursday night in my bathroom and blacked out before hitting the tub, thankfully I hit my back and not my head) today's my first day back online and I didn't want you all to think I was pissed about the thread.
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    websnap said...
    I would have replied sooner but I had a bit of a medical emergency (I has a seizure late thursday night in my bathroom and blacked out after hitting the tub, thankfully I hit my back and not my head) today's my first day back online and I didn't want you all to think I was pissed about the thread.
    Glad you weren't seriously hurt.

    Faith and the belief in a higher power is a very personal thing. Do I subscribe to organized religion? Hell no. IMO its a way to control the masses and collect money for themselves. The ones that do collect money are filthy rich and the ones higher up in these organizations live in opulence while some of the followers are living in deplorable conditions. Yet they still expect these people to tithe. So much for compassion.
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      CommentAuthorblueshead
    • CommentTimeAug 30th 2008
     
    If any of you poor sad souls need help or consoling remember that I am now an Ordained Reverend. Paypal will be accepted...
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    Bluez to the rescue!

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